Ceramic Coatings

rcull

rcull

Team Member
Has anyone here messed with ceramic coatings? I am interested in several, headers (of course), combustion chamber, and radiator. I have been looking at the "Tech Line Coatings".
  1. Headers: to minimize under hood temperatures.
  2. Combustion Chambers: Again to reduce cooling requirements and control temperatures, possibly along with some performance benefits (my application is only street performance so I may not run my engine hard enough to gain from the extreme performance benefits).
  3. Radiator: I hadn't originally considered this, but it appears that there could be some real gain here, claims to 20%! I figure a gain of 5-10% could make it worth while.

http://www.techlinecoatings.com/hi-performance/default.htm
 
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what are they talking about coating on the radiator? can you link the specific page? i'm not seeing anything obvious on radiators at your link.

and 20% gain of what?

the whole point of a radiator is to reject heat from the water into the passing air flow. how would a ceramic insulator aid this?



Headers: to minimize under hood temperatures.


from a power perspective, keeping the heat in the exhaust gases also helps to maintain exhaust velocity. the more heat in a gas, the more volume that gas wants to occupy.

so, if you have a ~300 degree ( just to throw a number out there ) drop in temp from the head exhaust port to the tip of the pipe at the back of the car, you actually need to reduce pipe cross section as you move from the collector to the back of the car simply to maintain exhaust velocity and not have the gases stacking and block itself.
 
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Ceramic Coating

Bob said:
Has anyone here messed with ceramic coatings? I am interested in several, headers (of course), combustion chamber, and radiator. I have been looking at the "Tech Line Coatings".
  1. Headers: to minimize under hood temperatures.
  2. Combustion Chambers: Again to reduce cooling requirements and control temperatures, possibly along with some performance benefits (my application is only street performance so I may not run my engine hard enough to gain from the extreme performance benefits).
  3. Radiator: I hadn't originally considered this, but it appears that there could be some real gain here, claims to 20%! I figure a gain of 5-10% could make it worth while.
Click to expand...


Headers are generally where everyone starts with Ceramic Coatings. Reduced underhood temps is a common reason, though corrosion reduction is the biggest. Coating the pistons and combustion chambers are generally for performance purposes, more commonly on aluminum head to keep the heat IN the chamber. You're likely going to start seeing OEM cars coming with coated chambers and pistons very soon as OEM's have recognized that there is about a 25-30% loss in thermal efficiency in modern engines due to aluminum blocks / heads / pistons. Capturing that HEAT is free HP.....

Not sure where you got your info on the radiator but you absolutely DO NOT want to ceramic coat a radiator. Ceramic coatings / thermal barriers are insulators which means they will keep heat in something and or reject heat similar to a thermos. In this case the heat is IN the radiator and you want to SHED heat, NOT keep it in the radiator. I suspect you are confusing ceramic coating in this scenario with "Heat Dissipating Coatings".

Heat Dissipating Coatings are typically used on intercoolers, radiators, brake parts, etc, or where someone is looking shed heat. A coated radiator or intercooler will typically dissipate heat faster than the raw substrate......
 
Here:
http://www.techlinecoatings.com/hi-p...df/cat2010.pdf
on page 12




okay, i'm not even sure that's a ceramic product. pg 5 also has some info, look at the 'CTD' and 'TLTD' product descriptions.

maybe if you get ahold of the MSDS sheet we can see something useful.

they're claiming surface protection ( eliminate oxidization ), better thermal conductivity and better heat rejection ( due to the black color ) all of which are viable claims, depending on what the product actually is.

biggest thing i would be concerned about is surface tension of the material allowing it to bridge over the airflow passages and actually block off fins but it sounds like a very thin viscosity fluid. you could probably blow over it the radiator with an airhose immediately after coating to remove any possibility of that hazard.

otoh, the radiator coating sounds to me like something for a full race engine.

if you've got a good rad and water pump and no problems internal to the engine it should take some pretty extreme conditions to render the cooling system incapable of keeping the engine below 190.
 
I had a set of steel TA 2" headers Jet Hot Coated inside and out in early 90s. I ran them for about 5 years. Looking at them in storage a few months ago, they still look like new. Most others would be mainly rust by now.
 
OK, I must have started reading "Ceramic Coatings", then had it stuck in my head for all coatings. They are evidently different coatings for the various applications.

I noticed on my internet journey of combustion chamber coatings, a performance chart which showed a cross-over rpm of about 3000 where it implied that there may actually be a HP loss below that rpm and a gain above it. Not sure what to think about that...

I really do ( note: edited from don't, can't believe is typed that ) think my cooling is in good condition in my car, but I put in a temp gauge and took it to the Buick Nationals. It was possible to notice the gauge climb a bit above the normal stable temperature. The conditions were hotter than hell, cruising at 75 with the a/c on, 3.36 gears at somewhere over 3000rpm. It never pushed any water out except when I pulled off the freeway to a motel which was right there and I shut the car down immediately causing some boil out ( my overflow tank is too small, but cute:) ).

I am planning a 455 this winter, maybe with headers, and am concerned about under hood temperatures. I feel I must maintain my "Star Wars" air cleaner, which means I really would like to not increase them. That is where interest in ceramic coated headers and header wraps comes from. While exploring that I thought I would look at the ceramic coated combustion chambers which could double duty to increase cooling performance a bit as I felt I had pushed it, and some performance gain to boot. That is where I noticed the radiator coatings, a little gain there can't hurt....and on it goes....more coatings than I had ever thought about:)

And I think I have all the tools and more to use them, so learn and I could do them for others too.
 
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CCPcoatings said:
Headers are generally where everyone starts with Ceramic Coatings. Reduced underhood temps is a common reason, though corrosion reduction is the biggest. Coating the pistons and combustion chambers are generally for performance purposes, more commonly on aluminum head to keep the heat IN the chamber. You're likely going to start seeing OEM cars coming with coated chambers and pistons very soon as OEM's have recognized that there is about a 25-30% loss in thermal efficiency in modern engines due to aluminum blocks / heads / pistons. Capturing that HEAT is free HP.....

Not sure where you got your info on the radiator but you absolutely DO NOT want to ceramic coat a radiator. Ceramic coatings / thermal barriers are insulators which means they will keep heat in something and or reject heat similar to a thermos. In this case the heat is IN the radiator and you want to SHED heat, NOT keep it in the radiator. I suspect you are confusing ceramic coating in this scenario with "Heat Dissipating Coatings".

Heat Dissipating Coatings are typically used on intercoolers, radiators, brake parts, etc, or where someone is looking shed heat. A coated radiator or intercooler will typically dissipate heat faster than the raw substrate......
Click to expand...

It appears you are a rep, how do you think ceramic coatings compare to header wraps for reduction in under hood temperature, better, equal or less.
 
Bob said:
OK, I must have started reading "Ceramic Coatings", then had it stuck in my head for all coatings. They are evidently different coatings for the various applications.

I noticed on my internet journey of combustion chamber coatings, a performance chart which showed a cross-over rpm of about 3000 where it implied that there may actually be a HP loss below that rpm and a gain above it. Not sure what to think about that...

I really don't think my cooling is in good condition in my car, but I put in a temp gauge and took it to the Buick Nationals. It was possible to notice the gauge climb a bit above the normal stable temperature. The conditions were hotter than hell, cruising at 75 with the a/c on, 3.36 gears at somewhere over 3000rpm. It never pushed any water out except when I pulled off the freeway to a motel which was right there and I shut the car down immediately causing some boil out ( my overflow tank is too small, but cute:) ).

I am planning a 455 this winter, maybe with headers, and am concerned about under hood temperatures. I feel I must maintain my "Star Wars" air cleaner, which means I really would like to not increase them. That is where interest in ceramic coated headers and header wraps comes from. While exploring that I thought I would look at the ceramic coated combustion chambers which could double duty to increase cooling performance a bit as I felt I had pushed it, and some performance gain to boot. That is where I noticed the radiator coatings, a little gain there can't hurt....and on it goes....more coatings than I had ever thought about:)

And I think I have all the tools and more to use them, so learn and I could do them for others too.
Click to expand...


What radiator are you using and what HP level are at? I haven't heard you mention anything about intake air temperatures, so why are you so concerned with under hood temps as opposed to engine temps?
 
I haven't heard you mention anything about intake air temperatures, so why are you so concerned with under hood temps as opposed to engine temps?


the 'Star Wars' air cleaner is a one year only option from 1967 which has no remote air pickup. so high under hood temps can easily have a negative impact on performance.

http://americanmusclecar.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/67-gs400-star-wars-air-cleaner.jpg

although now Bob is baffling me. increasing rad efficiency is going pump more heat into the engine compartment ... which kind of counteracts the entire point of ceramic coating the headers.

the best intake temp solution would probably be to rig up some sort of hose contraption to the underside of the hood that when closed would function to route air from in front of the radiator and pipe it directly to the Star Wars snorkel openings. there probably isn't room to go over the top of the rad and under hood though.
 
Yes, the "Star Wars" air cleaner forces me to use under hood air for my intake. I want some sort of originality, so cold air is not possible for cosmetic reasons. I am running a 4 core aluminum rad from alumitec. It is an original appearing radiator.

I believe, if you are building the heat you must disperse it, if when I instal the 455, in turn build more heat, because the configuration is identical to the 400, it will almost certainly be dispersed through the radiator if the engine is running cool. If it is not dispersed through the radiator, I would expect it would be dispersed through through block radiation and ?. Because the radiator air flows through the engine compartment, it could increase the under hood temperatures.

I must keep the engine cool to be happy, so if I am so foolish :) as to instal headers, I believe I should try to keep heat in them. Then with all this "Ceramic" stuff, I started to think (woops, usually a mistake), that it might be a good idea to coat the combustion chambers and exhaust runners, maybe even the pistons to keep the heat in the exhaust where it might reduce the concern for cooling.

My horsepower aspirations are not too high. I am currently running a "stock" motor with about a 215 duration cam, and probably won't increase the cam to more than 220 with the 455. A set of heads with some port work, combustion chamber work and stage one valves, a little work on the intake manifold, balancing and attention to specs, is about it. I would love to change out the carb, but probably won't because of the air cleaner and hood clearance problems that will certainly result. So given that the motor was supposed to have 345 hp, when done, somewhere over 400 may be about what it will have, and probably not over 450, but that's guesswork. I probably won't go over 5500 rpm.

Thanks for your input!:rod:
 
OK, I crawled out from under the house fixing (temporarily) the water leak at the solder joint in the copper pipe with a couple of hose clamps and a piece of rubber ( fun, fun, fun, ! ).

Revisiting me cruising down the interstate in 100 degree heat. Because I am doing a steady job, cruising on a hot day using 150HP ? , I am building a set amount of heat which must be dispersed (though cooling system, radiation, and exhaust ). The amount of heat may not change regardless of which motor I have because the job is the same. If I can keep more heat in the combustion chamber and push it out through the exhaust, I don't need to disperse it through the cooling system.

If all I was to do, is coat the radiator ( no other coatings ), if the radiator is dispersing the heat generated now, even if it is able to disperse it faster with a coating, it should be the same amount of heat, the radiator will just have a little more cool water in reserve.

Get out your drill and drill some holes:thumbsup:
 
Bob said:
Yes, the "Star Wars" air cleaner forces me to use under hood air for my intake. I want some sort of originality, so cold air is not possible for cosmetic reasons. I am running a 4 core aluminum rad from alumitec. It is an original appearing radiator.

I believe, if you are building the heat you must disperse it, if when I instal the 455, in turn build more heat, because the configuration is identical to the 400, it will almost certainly be dispersed through the radiator if the engine is running cool. If it is not dispersed through the radiator, I would expect it would be dispersed through through block radiation and ?. Because the radiator air flows through the engine compartment, it could increase the under hood temperatures.

I must keep the engine cool to be happy, so if I am so foolish :) as to instal headers, I believe I should try to keep heat in them. Then with all this "Ceramic" stuff, I started to think (woops, usually a mistake), that it might be a good idea to coat the combustion chambers and exhaust runners, maybe even the pistons to keep the heat in the exhaust where it might reduce the concern for cooling.

My horsepower aspirations are not too high. I am currently running a "stock" motor with about a 215 duration cam, and probably won't increase the cam to more than 220 with the 455. A set of heads with some port work, combustion chamber work and stage one valves, a little work on the intake manifold, balancing and attention to specs, is about it. I would love to change out the carb, but probably won't because of the air cleaner and hood clearance problems that will certainly result. So given that the motor was supposed to have 345 hp, when done, somewhere over 400 may be about what it will have, and probably not over 450, but that's guesswork. I probably won't go over 5500 rpm.

Thanks for your input!:rod:
Click to expand...





Understood, but as I said earlier, the only problem you appear to be having is a "cooling" problem. So therefore you need to address those components, i.e. radiator, water pump, fan and thermostat strategy. The fact that you're running an aftermarket 4 core aluminum radiator and having trouble cooling such a mild engine sticks out as a HUGE problem. Trying to resolve your cooling issue by reducing "under-hood" temps seems a bit odd and no where near the root cause of your problem. Your engine IS the source of the heat i.e. block, heads, exh manifolds, etc, etc. Whether you have ZERO under-hood heat or 1000F degrees of under-hood heat, your cooling systems needs to be able to handle it. Case in point, throw a stone and hit any single or twin turbo car or truck they're experiencing EXCESSIVE under-hood temps from the turbos and associated components but still able to maintain appropriate coolant temps......

As for a more efficient radiator causing a problem, that seems a bit far fetched. Do you really think that warm air (cooler than engine components) flowing past the rad into the under hood area is going to do anything to further heat up your cast iron block / heads and manifolds? The only problem I can see with this is increased IAT's, which again don't seem to be an issue.

Problems that would generally arise from excessive under-hood heat are intake air issues, fuel temp / vapor lock issues, burnt plug wires / electronics concerns. Don't get me wrong, obviously everyone seeks to reduce under-hood temps usually with the number one concern of reducing intake temps. Since you're not experiencing these issues I would be looking at cooling improvements....
 
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Bob said:
OK, I crawled out from under the house fixing (temporarily) the water leak at the solder joint in the copper pipe with a couple of hose clamps and a piece of rubber ( fun, fun, fun, ! ).

Revisiting me cruising down the interstate in 100 degree heat. Because I am doing a steady job, cruising on a hot day using 150HP ? , I am building a set amount of heat which must be dispersed (though cooling system, radiation, and exhaust ). The amount of heat may not change regardless of which motor I have because the job is the same. If I can keep more heat in the combustion chamber and push it out through the exhaust, I don't need to disperse it through the cooling system.

If all I was to do, is coat the radiator ( no other coatings ), if the radiator is dispersing the heat generated now, even if it is able to disperse it faster with a coating, it should be the same amount of heat, the radiator will just have a little more cool water in reserve.

Get out your drill and drill some holes:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Sure coating the pistons and combustion chambers will certainly put more heat out the exhaust system and likely have some minimal effect on reducing engine temps.

What I can't quite understand is that you have an engine making approximately 220HP and you feel you need to go to such extremes to try and cool the engine when we see normally aspirated, turbo charged and supercharged engines making 500HP -2000HP + not having a cooling issue or even contemplating coating heads or radiators.... Not saying it won't make any improvements, just suggesting its a long way to go about making cooling improvements...

We've been around coatings for 15+ years. In that time we've never been asked to coat a radiator and only done two sets of heads. Those were for HP improvements and nothing to do with cooling.
 
the "Star Wars" air cleaner forces me to use under hood air for my intake. I want some sort of originality, so cold air is not possible for cosmetic reasons.



you car actually is a 67?

so i suppose there's absolutely no chance that a 68-72 Stage 1 hood would fit on your car?

http://www.buickperformanceclub.com/70Stg.htm

http://www.buickperformanceclub.com/70Stg64.JPG

70Stg64.jpg


http://www.buickperformanceclub.com/70Stg65.JPG

70Stg65.jpg


obviously, trying to rig up a contraption to move the snorkel hoses from air cleaner mount to under hood mount ( because i don't see any way to mount it on a Star Wars ) would be pretty difficult.

but where there's a will there's a way! :D

alternatively, you could mount the 68-72 air cleaner assembly while you're cruising and swap in the Star Wars when you're showing.


oh, hey, 1967 GS nostril style hood:

http://www.tocmp.com/brochures/Buick/1967/FullLineUS/images/page 19a_jpg.jpg

page%2019a_jpg.jpg



something else that could help with under hood temps would be to make the 'gill slits' functional.






I believe, if you are building the heat you must disperse it


true. assuming no detonation due to excessive IAT you're going to be generating a given 'X' amount of BTUs at any particular power output and those BTUs have to be disposed of one way or another.



I would expect it would be dispersed through through block radiation and ?.


and exhaust.

the more heat that goes out the exh the less heat that has to be disposed of underhood.

so, since your primary goal is underhood temps, you'd want to coat all exh pieces back to at least the firewall.

coating the pistons should also help a great deal as alum conducts heat a lot faster than cast iron.



OT:
what's up with the CCPcoatings account? he's got multiple posts just in this thread but it's not incrementing his post count.

more important, when i go to the 'post reply' screen, his replies no longer show in the comment thread. i have to open a new window and view the raw thread in order to see / quote what he's saying.
 
Bob, yes, it is a '67 GS400 with all its good and bad points of being an original. If it were not a good representative capable of a reasonable desirable restoration, and I wasn't so nostalgic, I would have outside air in a heartbeat! How about a starwars air cleaner sticking through the hood like a shaker?


CCP, I don't have a significant heat problem, the temperature ( on the crap gauge I put in ) ran a little higher than normal while cruising at 75 degrees in close to 100 degree weather. If I hadn't put the gauge in, I would have never known because it would not have tripped the idiot light. I am just interested in keeping temperatures under control and saw benifits in additional heat dispersal through radiator coatings and perhaps not capturing the heat through piston/combustion chamber coatings. I think those 500 hp+ cars may run cool enough while cruising down the interstate, but they are not using any more HP than I was to do that same job. If they tried to use their HP for any length of time, I expect they would quickly develop huge cooling problems.

I understand that combustion chamber coatings are done for HP, but there seems to be an obvious side effect that when they keep the heat in the combustion chamber to pass out through the exhaust, that heat does not have to be dealt with in the cooling system. Now how much heat that is, is an unknown to me. It is interesting though that you mention some new vehicles may be using it on their aluminum heads. I realize the benefits with my cast iron heads won't be as high, but... And it does not seem like a job that is beyond my capabilities.

You also must know, I am the type of clown that paints the inside of his engines!?!? Yes, I like Krylon or Glyptol. Because it increased oil return rates, because it helps move contaminants over the cast iron into the pan, because it reduces the chances of flaking cast iron, NO! Because when I pull a valve cover or an intake back of my motor on a Sunday afternoon, with the tunes turn up and a cold one, it just looks sooooo nice! :)
 
You also must know, I am the type of clown that paints the inside of his engines!?



now i want to see pics of the inside of your engine.
 
This is the 455 that I am planning for my car.
455.png
​
And a 430 I had.
430.png​
Went to upload the 430 pic and accidentally deleted the 455 and the picture is at the shop, so I can't do anything about it for now.
 
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I noticed on my internet journey of combustion chamber coatings, a performance chart which showed a cross-over rpm of about 3000 where it implied that there may actually be a HP loss below that rpm and a gain above it. Not sure what to think about that...
 
As far as Rads go it's all about surface area & on aluminum rads the surface area is GREATLY reduced with the amount of rows. In this case a 4 core aluminum rad with normal size tubes like a copper/brass rad is a BIG NG. You want 2 rows of 1"-1 1/4" tubes. More surface area the better the heat dissipation. Do some research & you will find what I'm sayin' holds true.
Just my dimes worth.

Tom T.
 
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