Ignition / Starter Gremlin!

F

Forcedfed

Member
First.. thanks to those who solved my last problem, the solution was much better than lighting the car on fire... here is a problem I have had for a while and can't seem to figure out..

65 Riviera.. it is stripped and ready for paint (no dash, interior, nothin..) After putting the motor back in I noticed that about 85% of the time when I put the key in and turn it to the "run" position, the starter kicks for a split second... When I hold the key over to start it, everything works as it should. When I turn the car off and the key crosses that spot between run and off, the starter kicks again. I have replaced 3 ignition switches thinking that was the problem. I replaced the starter solenoid and replaced the wiring from the starter to the engine bay. What's crazy is that it didn't do it at all before the car was taken apart and it doesn't do it all of the time. In the past day or so it has gotten worse. Now when it does happen, it engages the starter and keeps it spinning while it is in the off or run spot so I have to screw with the key to until it stops otherwise it chews on the flywheel.

The only thing I can think of is maybe since the ignition switch is just hanging there, that something isn't grounded? The ignition does have a couple of wires that I don't recognize.. one wire looks like it's covered in fabric, and there is a bulb looking resistor type thing there also.. Could the problem be the starter itself although I replaced the solenoid?

Thanks again..
 
The next time the starter misbehaves, please run this test: Shift the transmission to any gear other than park or neutral and let us know if that cuts off the starter. Also, ground the switch body if it is still hanging by its wires. That one is too inviting to pass up.

Ray
 
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raycow said:
The next time the starter misbehaves, please run this test: Shift the transmission to any gear other than park or neutral and let us know if that cuts off the starter. Also, ground the switch body if it is still hanging by its wires. That one is too inviting to pass up.

Ray
Click to expand...


I tried that and it did the same thing.. in fact, the problem has now become a 100% of the time issue..I cursed myself!

Now each time the key is turned to Run it tries to start so I turn it off to take the key out and it continues to start! I turn it to ACC (the click to the left) and it stops, but I can't get the key out in that spot.. so I have to click it back and forth until it happens to stop while the key is in the off spot.. I think I will put the old (new) switch I just took out back in and see if it's still as bad.. I could have a combo problem.

Thanks Ray.. you have become my personal Buick advisor. The check is in the mail!
 
So just to make sure I am understanding you correctly, are you saying the problem still occurs when the shift lever is in Drive, 2, 1, or Reverse?

Ray
 
Yes.. I turned the key to run and the starter went nuts.. as it was turning the engine over I cycled it through the gears. Then I freaked out and started frantically turning the key to all positions to try and get the damn thing to stop turning over.. haha.

When I get off work I will try and see if it will do it if I put it in gear first to see if the Neutral Safety Switch is working. Also, I forgot that I took a close up of that switch hanging from the dash with all of its guts hanging out to post here. I will attach that when I get home also... not that I post and surf the forums while I'm at work, that would be wrong. :thumbsup:

I'm almost at the point where I considered paying a bunch of money for a high end RFID push button start kit like on my old vette!
 
WildKitty said:
Check the wiring with the following:

http://www.chip.com/buick/techtips/pertronix.html
Click to expand...


After reading that, maybe we are closing in on the problem... I didn't change any of the wiring from the ignition, but it got me thinking about some of the updates I did and how I may have upset the universe when I did it.... It has the MSD PRO Billet Distributor on it... that required me to call MSD Tech folks to get it to start. Because of the voltage drop to the coil, they had me run that pink coil wire to a 12V relay first and the 12V power out to the coil.. I did that and it started right up. That's the only thing that has been screwed with on the ignition side.

That wiring post does talk about the regulator wiring which got me thinking.. I switched to a one wire ALT.. the "kit" came with a cap that plugs into the male end of the harness and supposedly just connects everything back to itself.. That kit came with another small plug that plugged into the factory connector on the harness that plugged into the factory alternator. That small plug was only about 2 " long and plugged into the back of the new ALT. When that was plugged in like they asked, the car had a constant drain.. I just unplugged the plug they gave me from the kit and now the car charges and holds. I'm an electrical tard-o but maybe I upset the riviera gods?
 
Try disconnecting the Yellow wire at the "R" terminal on the starter. Almost willing to bet that you have a feed-back problem with the "New" ignition set-up via the relay.

Tom T.
 
On the alternator conversion kits that I am familiar with, the first plug (the larger one) is a jumper which attaches to the stock 4-wire regulator connector. The smaller one is an adaptor that lets you connect the original plug-in 2-wire harness to the new alternator. These parts are designed to furnish the energizing current needed by a 3-wire internally regulated alternator when the ignition switch is turned on, and also to enable warning light operation on those cars which have a warning light. Because of the way a stock GM alternator works, the regulator does have a connection to the ignition switch.

A kit like this would serve no useful purpose with a 1-wire alternator because it doesn't require energizing current and doesn't support warning light operation. Additionally, the parts could possibly cause unintended consequences (like your battery drain) when used with a 1-wire alternator.

Do your parts look like the ones I described, or if not, can you describe them? Also, did you get any instructions with them that specifically mentioned a 1-wire alternator?

Ray
 
Well..it looks like I have some things to research tomorrow.. I appreciate your help. Tom, I think I'll try your suggestion (cause it's easy..) or maybe even try disabling that relay and run the stock ignition wire back to the coil. The car won't start, but the starter will turn and act crazy (or not).

Ray.. the kit you describe is exactly what I have. Not one part of that operation came with any instructions at all. Most of it was done via Google and by me jambing plugs in places they look like they go.

The small plug to the alternator has been unplugged for a while.. Are you saying that the big plug that acts as a jumper doesn't need to be there at all on a 1 wire setup?

Oh.. Happy Thanksgiving!
 
Forcedfed said:
The small plug to the alternator has been unplugged for a while.. Are you saying that the big plug that acts as a jumper doesn't need to be there at all on a 1 wire setup?
Click to expand...

If the alternator harness is unplugged now, the jumper isn't doing anything for the alternator at all. However, it could possibly make a difference on your starter problem. Try removing the jumper to see if there is any improvement.

Ray
 
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UPDATE: Ugh.. I fixed the PCV problem (thanks again) and went through each suggestion you all had about tracing this thing... Nothing worked. I even combined all of the suggestions at the same time ..disabled the ignition relay, unhooked all of those aftermarket bypass plugs on the 1 wire ALT conversion, and disconnected the yellow wire on the starter. As long as the key is turned and the starter spins, it happens... so before I gave up I had to at least find a way to shut the car off. I learned that when the car is running and I go to turn it off that I need to jump all the way to the other extreme (acc) and the motor will shut off without the starter trying to engage. From the ACC spot, I put on my princess gloves and very slowly (like a ninja) click it into the OFF position so I can get the key out. It's so sensitive that if the car is off with the key still in the ignition, I can touch the key and it will try and start. This tells me it has to be something to do with that ignition switch!.. but it's the 3rd one and they all do the same thing??! It's gotta be the switch! It's just begging me to put a push button RFID kit on it.. Thats what the gods are trying to say.

..Before publishing this I figured I'd go take a couple of videos so you all can see what its doing and also a vid of a walk around of the project so you can see what WE are building..ha!.. At the end of the demo video, I tried my technique of getting the key out without the starter spinning.. yeah.. No bueno.. this time I had to turn the key to ACC to get the engine shut off, pop the hood and unplug the yellow and purple starter wire plug so I could turn the key back to OFF and get the key out. Just to check (with the keys in my pocket) I plugged in the starter plug and it started spinning.

[video=youtube_share;zHaDohdNCoc]http://youtu.be/zHaDohdNCoc[/video]
 
Here's the walk around..


It's a free tour.. no worries.

[video=youtube_share;u_BLYVwaTrk]http://youtu.be/u_BLYVwaTrk[/video]
 
Forcedfed, I am working on a longer post, and eventually I hope to be able to talk with you by phone about this problem because the troubleshooting process might involve more typing than I care to take on.

For the time being though, please run another test because my curiosity is killing me about this one particular point. Disconnect the purple wires from the neutral safety switch and tell me what happens. If there are more wires on the same connector, that's ok too. The other wires are for the reverse lights and will probably be green. Those won't make any difference for the first part of the test, so just unplug the whole thing.

Ray
 
raycow said:
Forcedfed, I am working on a longer post, and eventually I hope to be able to talk with you by phone about this problem because the troubleshooting process might involve more typing than I care to take on.

For the time being though, please run another test because my curiosity is killing me about this one particular point. Disconnect the purple wires from the neutral safety switch and tell me what happens. If there are more wires on the same connector, that's ok too. The other wires are for the reverse lights and will probably be green. Those won't make any difference for the first part of the test, so just unplug the whole thing.

Ray
Click to expand...

OK.. I unplugged the Purple and Green plugs off of the NSS and plugged the starter connector back in. With the NSS unplugged, the starter doesn't do anything when I turn the key and/or try and start the car.
 
Forcedfed said:
OK.. I unplugged the Purple and Green plugs off of the NSS and plugged the starter connector back in. With the NSS unplugged, the starter doesn't do anything when I turn the key and/or try and start the car.
Click to expand...

This is good news because it means that your starter circuit is still wired through the NSS, or else it would have made no difference when you unplugged the purple wires. I was beginning to think that a previous owner might have played with the wiring.

Next, are you saying that the purple and green wires have separate connectors on the NSS? If yes, please reconnect only the purple wires and try starting the car again. Also, please note if it makes any difference what gear the shift lever is in when you try the starter.

Lastly, where is the "starter connector" located that you mentioned above?

Ray
 
The NSS seems to be doing its job... When I have it in park and plug the connector with the purple wires on it, it immediately tries to start. While its trying to start, I put the car in gear and it shuts it down like it's supposed to. The starter connector I'm talking about is just a 2 wire male/female factory plug sitting on the driver's side inner fender well next to the power distribution block.. It has to be something simple like the ignition switch again.. It almost acts like the internal guts of the switch are clocked about a millimeter off.. but how that's possible with 3 different switches I don't know.

Is it possible for the starter itself to be causing it? It was new when I put it in, but since this has started happening I replaced the solenoid because that's the only place I thought could be causing the problem, but didn't replace the entire body.

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No, I don't think the starter is causing the problem. It has to be in the external circuit if the NSS is effective at stopping it.

Now I am still not clear on this one point, since it looks like the green wires are connected to the NSS in your picture. Did you try the test with the green wires NOT connected?

Ray
 
I plugged them in for the picture but they were unplugged for the test.. With them unplugged I touched the purple plug to its connection spot and the starter turned..
 
Forcedfed said:
I plugged them in for the picture but they were unplugged for the test.. With them unplugged I touched the purple plug to its connection spot and the starter turned..
Click to expand...

Ok, that shoots down my last theory for the time being (a defect in the NSS - one of the green wires has ignition power on it and the switch could have been internally shorting that to one of the purple wires).

It is looking more and more as if the ignition switch is at fault, and yet I can't imagine how you could have gotten three bad ones in a row.

Ray
 
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