To Alleycat

straight 8

I'm thinking about using a buick straight 8 in an old tractor for tractor pull.I thought that it would be neat!!. building the engine with big pistons and 9:1 compression ratio. Lots of torqe:shield:
 
straight 8s

Does anybody know the lenght of the connecting rods for the straight 8 engines. like on the 248,263, and the 320 engines?:confused:
 
str8 8

I think they only deck the block just enough to get it square with the crankshaft, and thats usually not very much. You dont want to mill the block much because it needs to be thick enough to keep the bores from warping when torqing the head. Running a straight 8 in a tractor would be interesting There are some guys running big straight 6,s and even running 2 of them coupled together! And they do PULL!
 
pistons

Jyrki, they made hi-po pistons in the past, forged, in various comp. ratios. I have a set of JE pistons in my 39 block, but mine were made long ago. And from from some of the advertisements ive seen they still make custom pistons. I talked to Don Montgomery who built and raced Buick I-8.s at the drags n, dry lakes , he used .090 over GMC pistons, and they wiil work on a Buick but the piston needs a bushing for the smaller Buick pin. I have a few of those pistons and they are the same dimensions as the Buick except for the bore, and have a much taller popup and very HEAVY! Don was running alcohol for fuel so the very hi compression would work. He,s the one who had that 6 carb manifold. yes the new hypereutectic piston would be the best way to go. And yes welding up a head is a lot of work. it was done a lot in the old days, i never heard if they welded iron in there, it was mostly they would grind into the water jacket and build up the quench area with weld, and then finish grind the combustion chamber to spec. I think that for everyday use just milling the head, a cam, and mild porting is the best way to go. I get carried away with dreams of a better breathing head, but for what they are, they do pretty good. I think your Buick does really well considering you gave your friend a good race against his modern chevy engined Buick. With the right gearing you might have won!
 
cams & stuff

Got some cam specs from Delta, the mild cam is a 252 duration with .420 lift. This will net out @ .050 to .206-.206 or about there. The hoter cam; 260 duration with .440 lift, this should net out @ .212-.212 @.050. However!! This is not the whole story! This is a grind that we see a lot in chevys, etc. There not the same. When I went to delta, I discused the lifter not rotating problem with them. We also talked about the buick lifter being 1" in diameter, which means that we can indeed get a more aggressive ramp profile on the lobe, way more than smaller liftered engines, like a sbc, the chevy guys go to a lot of trouble to do this trick and still are not close. No chevy type profiles. We also put about 2 1/2 to 3 degrees taper on the lobes is order to get the lifters more inclined to rotate. The lifters are oriented in pairs closer each other front to rear. That means that the taper on the lobes must face each other in pairs, not the same direction down the lenth of the cam. Delta has a profileing machine but the str8 cam is too long for it and they must hold it by hand in order to profile it. They did'nt do this for me as they thought that I was a one time only. They did'nt realize that guys half the world away wanted to know. So, I'm going to take them one or two cams and we'll really nail it down.

con rod lenth.
248: c.c.-7.625
263: c.c.-7.375
320: c.c.-8.250

Hey! "39", are these guys you talk about, that raced str8's, the guy that welded two toyota heads togather, still around? Could you actually call "em on the phone and find out what they are thinking now? And what that head is doing? The only reason those guys used all that old stuff 40 odd years ago...., is , moderen stuff had'ent been invented yet! Reinventing the wheel may, perhaps, yeld no more power than it did then, so,.....on to the biggest problem of the str8's....

Rods & Pistons!! Venola makes a very nice rod, the "superod" for big sixes. Its quite long, over 7 inches. It could, just possiably, be streched to just barely make it into the 263. Just. 248-320, not a chanch. This is why I've made my own rods. Twice. I did it in order to get the piston design I wanted into the engine. Its the only way. The comp distance is just too great. Getting the reciprocating weight off the crank is the only way to make these engines "live long & prosper", if you get my drift. There are pistons available that fill all our demands. I'll say it again. Harley-Davidson. Pistons made for H-D's have been made in every configuration known to man, and then some. Small changes to piston design cost little or nothing once your past the actual design, like leaving out the valve cutouts, etc. In order to make these pistons work a longer rod is required. Bummer. This dos'ent hurt in the 263. The others, well...Bad things start to happen at rpm's. In the case of the 320, there is, just possiably, for the "no guts, no glory" group, a way. Pic your piston, probably a hemi dome, forged, pin as low as possiable, harley disign, a piston that won't cost $200+ a slug. Calculate rod lenth, probably about 7 3/4". Cut the top of the deck off. (!!!!!!) Just under the head bolt threads. Cut the outside water jacket down, leaving the clinders standing tall. Bore out the deck out to drop over the clinders. Mark off the standing extra. Cut it off and bevel the outside of the top of the clinder in. Bevel out the deck. Weld it all back togather. Shorter block. Requiring , thus, shorter rods. Deck & bore the block, chase a few threads, and your ready to go! This will require a very good welder. Oliverbuick, you just happen to have just such a guy down in
Smoky Point, by the handle of "Iron Mike". Have fun! alleycat
 
RE: str8 -- 8

There are also a couple of nice photos of a 4-71 supercharged 1950 Buick on the Inliners International site (scroll to bottom):

www.inliners.org


Webrodder also has a couple of links for their Buick "Fireball" buildup that might be of interest to other people:


Part 8 - Using the Bendtsen's trans adapter behind the straight eight
http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=235&SID=6


Part 9 - Generator to alternator conversion made easy
http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=239&SID=30


-Sean
 
Hey guys....If you read my posts of a while back, (we'er up to post # 87,!!!!) you will find that I supercarged my buick 248 long ago, Now at the time I had a switzer-cummings unit that I used, which is more like a turbo than anything else, and I did gear it up a little, but its still not like a roots type. I could'nt afford a roots but I also did'nt have a machine shop either so it just was'ent feasable at the time. The switzer unit has some nice things going for it, like low load at low speeds, but once its cranked up...boost is boost....I ran it around for a while around town, back 'en forth to school, etc, Then I figgured that its time ti find out what it'll really do, a run up to the cabin ought to do it!! There was a 40 odd mile spot with no lights, traffic, etc. Holy...Crow!!! I know what the Duesenberg, Auburn crowd mean when they say it starts to "whine" and gets up on the boost curve, baby flys...It was running a little "funny" when I rolled into the drive at the cabin, it was running real funny when I made it back home. After the teardown I found 1,as in one, good piston. Thats when I found that pistons for str8's are crap. The engine is only as good as the weakest link. Supercharging works, but you better have good parts in there.

My 248 will most probably eat a 320. My 263/310 without a doubt, positivly, will. No sweat.
 
pistons

What about using tractor pistons. some tractor engines have 10" rods? I'm going to do some research on tractor piston specs and let you what i find. My criteria for pistons is compression hieght, pin diameter. connecting rod being centered in piston, and diameter. do any of you buick guys know if the 320 can take a 4" bore?:coo:
 
transmissions

say anyone out there know how later model hydromatic 3 spd or OD works out on a straight 8?
 
I'm currently working on adapting a laycock j-type overdrive unit out of a 80's volvo to my dynaflow. I've also tryed every rear end ratio that buick had, and for just rollin' down the freeway, 3.23's the engine likes best. These engines are torque monsters, hp is just a byproduct/afterthought, so anytime the engine is built up, torque values go up way faster than hp. So, it's my thinking that a overdrive that gives a final ratio of 2.40-2.70, which would be about 1400-1500 rpm at 65-70 mph, or thereabouts, and the engine would be pulling right into the meat of the powerband, it should work great! Now, a bone stock 248, prehaps, may not have enough grunt to pull a 2.40 final, but with a 3.5, or so, with a 25% overdrive, this would give a 2.70, or so, should be fine. And the mileage?...Will be way over 20...alleycat
 
gearing

Alleycat, good info, with torq tube drives, need all the help we can get. I am tossing around some ideas for my 39 century [3.90 ratio], with the ball joint mounted in the middle of the x memeber it has the honor of being the bastard child in buick torq tube rear drives. This makes some things easier,and some more difficult. I need to get taller gears for freeway driving, and your experience with later rear ends with the 3.23 ratios sounds good. i think it would adapt to my 39 ok. however I have a ford top loader ovr/drv trans from a ford van, its a full syncro trans with 4th gear o/d, and it looks to be adaptable inplace of the the buick trans, but it might entail using an opendrive, and then hooking up a column shift!! [ early Mercedes]Or I could use a jeep 176 T [which is a ford top loader, and uses ford gears] and have floor shift like the early buicks!
 
Ha! I should of figgured that with a handle like "39cent" that you have a 1939 century, and dynaflows are very rare in 39, sure, your car has a stick trans. You may be better off than you think. I think, now don't run to the bank with this, but, I think that the rear end gears and case, that is, " the pumpkin" is basicly the same from sometime in the 30's to '55. The actual driveshaft is retained with a pin, the torque tube bolt-up is the same, as is the housing, axel splines, the same. Other than cosmetic differences and maybe a added rib or two, I think this would go right in. 3.23's are the most common rear from 52 on. This alone will make a profound difference in your car.

Making a ford toploader work probably could be done, but there may be a easer way. GM's trans were very much the same for years, and there were overdrives on some of these trans. Why buick never got the option I'll never know....The SAE boys set up spline specifications for a given shaft diamiter, GM pretty much stayed with them. You might be able to get a GM overdrive and nearly bolt it on. But!!, Gear Vendors uses a laycock overdrive, like I'm using, and since the GM trans stayed very nearly the same for a long time, they may have a coupler and a adaptor that will just bolt up, however it has a open tailshaft. There's a u-joint of some type in that torque ball, with a shorty driveshaft, a u'joint input switch around, you're on the road. Gear Vendors dos'ent give away these units but it might save a LOT of time. In my case, with a dynaflow....well...I must be very creative. alleycat
 
Muncie, Super T-10, and T5 will bolt on to the stock clutch housing with some modifications. You need to grind the hole in the housing larger, in order to fit the larger front bearing of the later gearboxes. Then you need to drill and tap a couple of new holes to match the bolt pattern. If you are using a Muncie, that's all you need - it has a 10-spline input shaft like your Buick does. Borg-Warners come with a different spline count, thus requiring a new clutch disc to match. The input shaft diameter and depth are a direct match. The speedo cable is available at any parts counter, since they were the same until they became electronic. Shifter location may give you some work. With a Super T-10 in a 1946 Roadmaster, the shifter came too far back, so I notched the bench seat a little.:shifter:

Oh well, you do need an open driveline to go with the new trans. Third-generation Camaros and Firebirds have a torque arm type of rear axle, and can be installed to the X-frame quite easily
 
Alleycat, if there's anything about building a performance I-8, that I forgot to ask, but you would like to share, I'm all ears!

How's your latest engine coming together?
 
Jyrki, you would not believe the ideas that I have rattling around in my head, for internal combustion engines in general and str8s. I most likely will never live long enough to try em all. Stuff I tossed out here, juuuuust scratchin the surface.....

The transmission thing, three (3!!!) to choose from!!!! I kinda thought that very little had really changed with stick trans. Did you try em all? This is great, really great, almost like shootin fish in a barrel. The only "problem" remaining is the torque tube, if a person is not too hot on converting. I took a look at my muncies and t-10's and the end of the trans is plenty thick for this: Machine up a flange copying the torque tube bolt up flange. Press it onto the end of the trans. Tig it in place. Convert the CV joint, which requires oil, to a u-joint, which takes grease. Adjust the drive shaft and torque tube to correct lenth, any driveline shop can do this in about a day, and bolt it all up. I'll just bet that gear vendors has a overdrive for t-10's or muncies. This would be such a cool set up.....

Sending the pistons for the 248 off to Swain Tech Coating in New York, for ceramic dome coating and teflon skirt coating. Str8's have a very high piston speed, cutting piston friction is a very good thing. I'm changing the porting in the head and I'm going to flow bench it with stock, what I've got, and what it'll be. Should be back in by june. 263/310 is getting worked on somewhat slower, but the car it's going in is'ent even remotly ready. No rush. I may toss it in my 50 when it's ready, just to test it. It's going to be a full 100hp + over the 248, probably just gotta try it...alleycat
 
I measured both Muncie and ST-10, and the ST-10 was far more affordable at the time. From what I know, a T-5 is similar but only features a canted bolt pattern.

Thermal barriers are most effective in a low-compression engine. I coated the piston crown, combution chamber & valves. This usualluy nets a 5% increase in power, but also a much greater improvement in mileage.

For reducing friction, I also coated the skirts, but nowadays there's a much better, revolutionary substance called RVS. It may not be available in the US yet. It creates a hard, very slick metallic-ceramic (ferro-silicate) layer on all ferrous (iron, mild steel) surfaces that are subject to friction. This is no bullshit, I have seen this work and are using it in all of my engines. I have also seen a block in a machine shop, run with RVS, on which the cylinder walls were "glazed" with this substance, being almost too hard to be honed off. This is also the reason why new engines should be allowed to run in properly to bed in the piston rings before the treatment. See www.rvs-tec.com

Keep us updated on your progress. :laugh_4:
 
Actually, I was'nt going to use any coatings in my 248. I've expieremented a little with coatings and had mixed results. Dome coating that was no longer there when the engine is opened up, with not that much run time. Teflon skirt coating that is gone with 15 min of run time...But I think I'm finding the proper prep and clearance to make this stuff work, along with the technology just improving with time. I'm certain that there's merret in the stuff, I just want it to work over the long term. So, I'm going to try again with the 248. I want to give the pistons the best chanch of surviving as possiable. I have relatives in california, I'd like to drive my buick down there...and back!!!alleycat
 
Hi, I just ran accross this sight and am thrilled to see this thread! I have been a fan of straight-8 performance for years and I'm happy to find some others that are too. I've always been a Buick fan and also a fan of dry lakes racing. I went to Bonneville in '91 so I could worship at the one true altar of speed. A trip all hard core motorheads should make at least once in their life! You will see more balls out, kick ass vintage speed parts being used to their fullest potential in one week than you will see in a lifetime anywhere else. I went to learn about the old engines, straight 8's, Jimmy 6's, flathead fords etc. I met a really cool guy named Bob Opperman who ran a straight 8 in a lakester. I will post the pics of his machine as soon as I figure out how. He ran a bored out 320 with side draft webbers, 180 degree headers, vertex mag, dry sump oiling and a whole bunch of other mods. I know he was turning 5500 rpm and going in the 200mph range. I don't know if Bob is still kicking or not. I corresponded with him for about a year after my trip. He was trying a long rod big dome combo the next year. He said he had to grind all hell out of the block in the area where the cyls. meet the crank case and that the ultra big domes absolutly killed his flame travel inside the combustion chamber, he had to add a ton of timing to get it to run. I'll post some more on it when I get the pictures up. Anyway when I got back from the lakes I hunted up a nice 320 core and was going to build my own lakes racer. I did a ton of research, talked to everybody I could get ahold of in the aftermaket industry that messes with the old stuff. But as too many know life got in the way. If people are interested I'll post some of what I learned. I've got most of a 320 for sale also.
 
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